A Logical Discourse

[Logio]

A is A: Aristotle's Law of Identity

Everything that exists has a specific nature. Each entity exists as something in particular and it has characteristics that are a part of what it is. "This leaf is red, solid, dry, rough, and flammable." "This book is white, and has 312 pages." "This coin is round, dense, smooth, and has a picture on it." In all three of these cases we are referring to an entity with a specific identity; the particular type of identity, or the trait discussed, is not important. Their identities include all of their features, not just those mentioned.

Identity is the concept that refers to this aspect of existence; the aspect of existing as something in particular, with specific characteristics. An entity without an identity cannot exist because it would be nothing. To exist is to exist as something, and that means to exist with a particular identity.

To have an identity means to have a single identity; an object cannot have two identities. A tree cannot be a telephone, and a dog cannot be a cat. Each entity exists as something specific, its identity is particular, and it cannot exist as something else. An entity can have more than one characteristic, but any characteristic it has is a part of its identity. A car can be both blue and red, but not at the same time or not in the same respect. Whatever portion is blue cannot be red at the same time, in the same way. Half the car can be red, and the other half blue. But the whole car can't be both red and blue. These two traits, blue and red, each have single, particular identities.

The concept of identity is important because it makes explicit that reality has a definite nature. Since reality has an identity, it is knowable. Since it exists in a particular way, it has no contradictions.

Taken From:

http://www.importanceofphilosophy.co..._Identity.html

It seems that this would be self evident. I would like to know if there are any thoughts on the matter. Perhaps it may seem a limited concept for some to care about, but I think it is a fundamental principle of things (in reality).

Nathan

[Lion Spirit Walker]

Okay peeps. I'm trying to be curtious here and allow someone else to step up to this plate.
PLEASE! Someone say something. This is making me crazy.

[Logio]

Okay peeps. I'm trying to be curtious here and allow someone else to step up to this plate.
PLEASE! Someone say something. This is making me crazy.

...I think I know what is coming. LOL!

[Lion Spirit Walker]

Lollol. I'm behaving. I promise. Lollol

[Logio]

Lollol. I'm behaving. I promise. Lollol

MIchael, I believe in your voice. I'm glad that you don't tread lightly.

Nathan

[Lion Spirit Walker]

Thank you very much.
That belief is mutual.
And the 'growth' through such interactions is both very apparent and appreciate.

[Rana]

"To have an identity means to have a single identity; an object cannot have two identities "

it is interesting to read a point of view which is 1 dimensional ..facinating yet deeply sad .


"Everything that exists has a specific nature. Each entity exists as something in particular and it has characteristics that are a part of what it is. "This leaf is red, solid, dry, rough, and flammable." "This book is white, and has 312 pages." "This coin is round, dense, smooth, and has a picture on it." In all three of these cases we are referring to an entity with a specific identity; the particular type of identity, or the trait discussed, is not important. Their identities include all of their features, not just those mentioned."

of course if one is looking with ones physical eyes in a physical sense this theory can reflect just that . the organism that maketh the physical body ,being the skeletal,muscular,endocrine,nervous etc is factual ,undeniable and evident ..as this theorist has described it, all of this is characteristics of the ONE entity . the tree ..with its bark ,the leaves . BUT .. what is it that changes the leaves brown ,what makes the leaves fall in sync with the seasons ? the bee that travells from flower to flower collecting pollan , is it the physical flower that calls the bee to come to it ? is it the intelligence of the bee alone ? it is not the actual physical entity as described that is able to exist alone in its singular form ..it is the unseen .the force that tells the bee to travel from flower to flower . why does a human being cry tears when they "FEEL" sad or overly happy ? it isnt the eye duct that generates it alone ..because we all know it is generated from a feeling ,a thought.

" a dog can not be a cat " .. last century it was instinctive for Dogs to be an enemy of the cat , because they are domestic friends in this day and age and their meal provided they have adapted ,and get along . if a cat were raised as a dog WITH other dogs it may feel it IS a dog (of course we can not know for sure) a dog can not transform into the cat (the organism) but he identifies with being a cat because the dog acts like a cat .

reality is unique to everyone and everything .. it depends really if one is concious to their reality and on what level. if i was being interviewed it would depend on what questions the interviewer asks and from THEIR point of view from their reality , what is reality for one is not for another.what is knowable to one isnt knowledge to another . say for me my reality and what i identify with is NOT my organism but the spirit ,this is my reality therefore this theorist will say my identity (what i identfy with) and yes this spirit exists in a particular way so then there is no contradictions.

so the car may be described as blue but in essence it is made up from a grey material that is broken down into the minerals , and the chemicals that make it blue in colour. only generalised ,labelled then pigeon holed as ONE object with many characteristics (in the basic of descriptions ) an entity ? no not in essence only on the superficial layer.

wow great brain teaser with the wording ..really got the neurons moving ..thanks for helping me see how far we have really come ..xx

[Logio]

An identity is limited by definition only...An infinite complexity would still have the identity of infinite complexity.
If an identity includes attachements such as spirit or beliefs, then that also is included within that identity. All microscopic realities are also contained within an identity.

Nathan

[Rana]

An identity is limited by definition only...An infinite complexity would still have the identity of infinite complexity.
If an identity includes attachements such as spirit or beliefs, then that also is included within that identity. All microscopic realities are also contained within an identity.

Nathan

for me and my understanding identity IT is the attatchment of the spirit ..as is the infinite complexities described and microscopic realities .


Rana

[Logio]

for me and my understanding identity IT is the attatchment of the spirit ..as is the infinite complexities described and microscopic realities .

Rana

That's quite understandable in a metaphysical way...perhaps much the same way as the Christian Trinity is said to have a certain identity.

[BlueStar]

Trying to figure out whether to share my thoughts or whether it's better to plaster my mouth with sellotape and run off...

[Logio]

Trying to figure out whether to share my thoughts or whether it's better to plaster my mouth with sellotape and run off...

This is an open forum; speak your word young one.

[Lion Spirit Walker]

Side note; An individuals physical age is by no means a measure of their true Wisdom.

[Logio]

Side note; An individuals physical age is by no means a measure of their true Wisdom.

Sorry, I guess that sounded condescending. I know there are younger people far wiser and intellegent than I. ...my apologies for the bad humor.

Nathan

[Lion Spirit Walker]

Just a simple reminder my younger friend.

[Logio]

Hegel's thought on the matter:

If everything is identical with itself, then it is not different, not opposed, has no ground. Or, if it is assumed that no two things are the same, that is, everything is different from everything else, then A is not equal to A, nor is A opposed to A, and so on. The assumption of any of these propositions rules out the assumption of the others. The thoughtless consideration of them enumerates them one after the other, so that there does not appear to be any relation between them; it has in mind merely their reflectedness-into-self, ignoring their other moment, positedness or their determinateness as such which sweeps them on into transition and into their negation."

-Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, Proposition # 868 on Laws of Identity and Diversity

From:

http://www.marxists.org/reference/ar...s/hl/hl409.htm

Perhaps this means that if a single thing cannot be compared to itself, then there isn't a surety that it is itself...even though this seems obvious to our common sense that a thing is, should be itself! This seem to be a paradoxal wall to a proof of reason. Even Decartes' "I think therefore I am", does not have the reach to prove that a thing is itself...but only that it exists.

Nathan

[Lion Spirit Walker]

Nathan my friend, are you You?

[Logio]

Nathan my friend, are you You?

Have I not the right to play the Devil's advocate once in a while?...Even if I really think "A = A" is not untuitive but purely logical.

Nathan

[Narnia]

What if all answers here are correct?

Just because one sees something differently doesn't mean it is entirely wrong ... every view/perspective on everything and or anything has it's own respective position in the greater picture like a puzzle piece in a puzzle or a thread in tapestry.

So, no matter which way 'you' or 'one' or 'I' view identity ... it has it's place .... it just depends on where it is viewed that makes it different.

Just my enigmatic thoughts ...

[Logio]

I believe A = A....perhaps where most people go wrong with this is in a spatial temporal way: something that was white in the past may now be black....or something both black and white such as a checkerboard has the nature of a black and white checkerboard, it is not really of the two identies black and white, but of one identity containing black and white. This is contained within a frame of one thing that has a "togetherness". Perhaps this breaks down in reality with spatial time warps...then a thing's identity may become a confused absurdity.

Nathan