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    Thread: Examining Social Rules

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      Default Examining Social Rules

      ((((Everybody)))))

      I've been thinking of starting this thread for about a month now, but until today I wasn't sure exactly how to approach it.

      Noticing that we in general tend to be "Anti Society" (if there is such an expression...LOL), and we more often then not view our cultures and Social Rules and regulations in a very negative manner.

      I also see how it ends up limiting our experiences in this world...bringing us to a place where we have low tolerance levels for people and situations that we don't agree with due to Social Rule, thus we become stuck on a very narrow path, even though we Think we are on a wide one.

      Society is broken down into so many sections and subsections that it is hard to truly know all the nuances of any give society, for eg...there are the general social rules of a country, of a region (state, Province) of a city or township, of a neighborhood, of a home or family group etc etc etc.

      Each generation of children born will change a number of the social rules in place at the time, throughout their lives, thus there is an an ever changing system, I'll be it a very slow changing system...but changing none the less.

      What I'd like to do is truly examine our individual societies and discover some of the very positive changes that have already occurred and some of the changes taking place today. I'd also like to discuss the idea's and such that are truly outdated and how to change them etc, but I'd like to see this done in a positive fashion rather then a negative one.

      Sooo in this light I'd like to start the discussion on by asking you to share one social rule within the society that you live that has changed to bring about a more positive outcome.

      An example would be, in the USA almost 100 years ago women did not have a voice and were not permitted to vote in elections, but that changed and today we are have an equal voice within elections.

      Looking forward to read your responses.

      Love/Peace/Joy

      Shannon

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      (((Shannon))), I honestly find this topic of discussion of real interest. But I suspect a more open discussion might occur if this thread were in a more appropriate forum, such as 'Unresolved...'
      One thing I will add here is how I believe the majority of the members here (myself included) are here due to our difference of perspectives from that which is or has been considered 'social norms'. And this difference of perspectives isn't by any means negative. And in honest consideration it has always been such differences that have brought abiout changes within any society, past and present.
      Case in point; The generation before ours had never considered an african-american as a legitimate leader of the USA. Yet because of many of our generation being of a differing opinion we know have Obama as president of the USA.


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      (((Michael)))

      (((Shannon))), I honestly find this topic of discussion of real interest. But I suspect a more open discussion might occur if this thread were in a more appropriate forum, such as 'Unresolved...'
      One thing I will add here is how I believe the majority of the members here (myself included) are here due to our difference of perspectives from that which is or has been considered 'social norms'. And this difference of perspectives isn't by any means negative. And in honest consideration it has always been such differences that have brought abiout changes within any society, past and present.
      Case in point; The generation before ours had never considered an african-american as a legitimate leader of the USA. Yet because of many of our generation being of a differing opinion we know have Obama as president of the USA.
      Thanks for the response!!

      I agree it is a great subject, and I truly understand why we tend to be the way we are in this forum and many like it...which I'm not saying is bad...but I do find with myself and others that we tend to get caught up in our passion, our fears and frankly the more negative social behaviors tend to dominate these discussions.

      That is why I put the thread here, so that we would be less tempted to allow our powerful passionate emotional responses that may offend others and limit how many people may be willing to discuss this.

      Saying that I'm expecting to have a very lively discussion which would include different opinions, and portray hopefully all aspects of this subject.

      I Love your example of the black president, it is so true.

      Thank You...Love YOu

      Shannon

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      Good point regarding passionate reactions.
      My thought is how our passions, both positive and negative contribute so strongly to who we are.
      I do however agree that this forum allows for input from others that may not otherwise occur.
      I see within society, and now I speak of our current global society, a herd-like mentallity with far too many. This metality more often than not contribute to an overall destructive effect upon the Earth.
      Without doubt there are constructive effects as well. In example, I follow Annie Lennox in the Sing campaign which actively works to bring positive change to women and children around the world with HIV/AIDS. But when you weigh this against what is occurring with the oil gushing into the Carribean, it's easy to understand why passionate responses become directed as they do.
      I have considered the use of fossil fuels to be a negative choice by society as a whole since the 7th grade. I was even chosen by my math teacher to attend a science fair there in Denver where I discussed my thyoughts and opinions, which included alternative fuel sorces and behaviors by society as a whole. I was only ten years old at that time. Since then I've watch the situations play themselves out as they have.
      In my understanding the situation and knowing I couldn't change the global mentality with regard to fossil fuels, I chose to stop driving and owning an automobile in 1996. I felt that at very least I could make a more positive chose in my 'footprint' upon the Earth.
      There really is sooo much that can be discussed here. But I'll give someone else a chance and return a little later with additional thoughts.
      Peace and Love to you as well dear Shannon.


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      I spent aaages writing a reply to this very interesting thread. But when it came to posting it my broadband connection was lost and so too was the post. Wasn't meant to be. Maybe I'll share some comments again, it is an interesting discussion. In the meantime, some of the thoughts I originally shared I have posted in a new blog. Not entirely related, but maybe a little.

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      (((Blue)))

      Yup I've done that many times...spent an hour on a post and lost it at the last minute. But on the upside, the second time I write it usually ends up being a better post!!! Looking forward to yours.

      ((((Michael)))))

      I see within society, and now I speak of our current global society, a herd-like mentallity with far too many.
      Do you think this is a current situation? It seems to me that this dynamic has remained true throughout history, but perhaps it has not always been a bad one.

      I was thinking about it and one of the things about the dynamics of a society seems to be that only a handful of people come into this world capable of leadership, while the rest are simply not.

      It also seems that in order for society to function or a mass amount of people to live with one another we almost need to have this layered system, or hierarchy in order for all the things that need to be done in order to live productive lives etc.

      That being said it does not constitute the need for people to remain ignorant of things, or not to think for themselves and look to a leader that embraces a better understanding etc.

      In other words to blindly follow is perhaps the issue, not so much that we may follow others, but rather if we follow with intent and understanding.

      On the oil issue...well...cars are one thing, but if you really want to know what is taking up so much oil it's in plastics. In order to make plastic you need oil!! Not to mention it is used in food products such as Dream Whip and Coffee Mate...of course I'm loosely calling those food products....

      Again though I guess we could look at our environmental issues being so because of those people that were blindly following some leader or another, without truly thinking about what they were doing and choosing a different path.

      OK...that's all for now...thanks for the responses...hope to see more.

      Shannon

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      in Australia our well now as of two days ago ex priminister Kevin Rudd apologised for the genocide and stealing of Aboriginal children form their parents and communities, they have been working towards in this country at "bridging the gap " between indigenous and non indigenous cultures . i live in a small community of reasonably open minded people who all band together ..our school only has 120 students and we look out for all the children in it ...









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      (((Airini)))

      That is great that the Priminister acknowledged the great wrongs of the past...it is truly a step forward in the healing process of a nation and of a people.

      This is a subject that I've examined a number of times as it still occurs in our world...although on a much smaller basis.

      Genocide seems to be one of those things that has occurred within our history around the world. It is one of the more barbaric social behaviors that comes to mind when I think of the things our ancestors condoned as being socially OK.

      Even today there are some of the smaller countries that are actively engaging in this practice, believing strongly that it is almost their duty or right to eliminate a people based on some religious criteria.

      This is an area I have a harder time then most in understanding the mentality around the practice.

      What I am grateful for is that we are evolving as a species and have truly begun the healing process around this issue in many respects.

      But the truth is that as here in the USA/Canada and Australia these events occurred in the not so distant past, and the abuse of the aboriginal peoples persisted strongly up until only a few short years ago...and in a smaller part today.

      Acknowledging these things is definitely a positive step forward and a social change that is in my opinion long overdue and one that has and will continue to alter other aspects of our social mentality when it comes to human rights and understanding each other.

      Thanks for bringing this one up Airini.

      Peace/Love/Joy

      Shannon

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      (((Everybody)))

      Something that comes up regularly and i'd like to go back to for a moment is the idea of a great majority of people that follow blindly what their appointed leader (community leader, family leader, country leader, religious leader etc) puts forth for them.

      These are the people that will read a news paper story and believe they have a good handle on what happened and how it happened and that that story is gospel.

      So how do we encourage people to do more then simply take the surface information and run with it, but rather research the information to find the fuller story which may be very different then what has been represented.

      The following is a story that ran in April and made national news in Canada. Please take the time to read it and share what your reaction to this story is.

      Chiefs of greed

      Outlandish salaries prove changes needed on reserves

      CALGARY HERALD APRIL 23, 2010 COMMENTS (17)


      Documents leaked to the Canadian Taxpayers Federation by a member of the Enoch Cree First Nation show that its chief, Harry Sharphead, earns more than Premier Ed Stelmach. The Enoch Cree have 2,170 members. Alberta has a population of 3,711,845. Sharphead's tax-free equivalent salary is $274,000. Stelmach earns $214,000.

      Either Sharphead is overpaid or Stelmach is underpaid, and we're not advocating a raise for the latter. Considering the average income for a member of the Enoch Cree is about $12,000 and some live in condemned and substandard housing, one can understand why the leaked financial documents to the Canadian Taxpayers Federation came with an accompanying note saying, "I am writing out of pure frustration."

      The Aboriginal People's Television Network last week interviewed two Enoch women about the chief's remuneration. Neither was pleased. One lives in a house with mould issues, the other in a house with boarded windows.

      Sharphead was elected last summer at the age of 40 for a two-year term, defeating incumbent Ron Morin. Living up to his promise to bring in transparency, Sharphead, to his credit, reduced his tax-free salary last November from $250,000 to $180,000. On a tax-free basis, that equates to a reduction from $388,000 to $274,000, according to the federation.

      Morin, the federation notes, earned an even more lucrative $327,712 in 2006-07, for a taxfree equivalent of $515,720. Enoch councillors that year earned about $175,725, or a taxfree equivalent of $265,000.

      Considering that other tribal salaries have been exposed as stratospheric, this is hardly startling. In January, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation released sky-high band council pay levels on the Peguis reserve in Manitoba. The five members of the 7,200-member band decided to pay themselves the taxable equivalent of approximately $295,000 to $439,000 in 2008-09, which was almost equal to or higher than Prime Minister Stephen Harper's salary of $310,000.

      The Canadian Taxpayers Federation says many native people complain that chiefs and councillors ignore their attempts to get information on salaries, even though they are legally entitled to it. The federation says those salaries should be posted on all tribal websites, but Indian and Northern Affairs says it is legally prevented by case law and the Privacy Act from releasing salary information. This, the federation notes, goes against pay-disclosure practices for other taxpayer-funded elected officials in Canada. Not all First Nations revenues come from the taxpayer. In addition to Indian Affairs, revenue is also generated from tribal enterprises, the complexities of which can vary widely.

      The federation also argues that chief and councillor salaries should be determined by independent third parties. Currently, native governments set their own pay.

      Given that Indian Affairs says it is legally restricted from disclosing salaries, it appears that First Nations governing members must do so themselves. Sadly, it's doubtful much will change. The Enoch Cree website still lists Morin as chief, nine months after he was defeated.

      © Copyright (c) The Calgary Herald
      I'll share more about this story after.

      Peace/Love/Joy

      Shannon

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      this is true shannon and it is increasing as the next generations arent being encouraged to take an interest and study of some basic politics and media as we would have all done starting in primary school years , they have so much distraction taking focus away from true injustices and the skills of how to obtain and wnat to obtain the truth in the matter or close to it.i hate on the news when they have they flash newslines running along the border of the screen the news becomes a spectacle.are people just numbed brained or lazy ? they go along with the flock for some reason and yes this is why so many attrocites occur because it isnt only one person who starts it it is the messes that carry it on. education systems arent challenged enough by parents to keep the curriculum aimed at edcutaiong the children about news and current affairs not only in theri state but the world view.and how to access organisations to be part of the change if needed.parents need to engage their children at a young age to be alert want to care and focus ..to be free thinking and challenge the governments if something seems wrong..with all the electrical influences their minds get carried away ...we need to carry them back..









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      ((((Airini)))))

      Interesting that you should mention learning about media etc through the school system.

      I remember when I was in grade 7 or 8 having a section in Social Studies that dealt with advertising, propaganda and the media. I don't know if it was part of the curriculum or because of the teacher we had, but it was my first wake up call, which was then re enforced at home with more lessons on how advertisers entice the public to buy products, which also leads to how the media manipulates.

      The unfortunate truth about parents engaging in this teaching is that most of the parents are buying into it all so they teach their children to do the same thing.

      LOL...as I'm sitting here thinking about what to write next on the subject I just had an idea...it may be that we need to use this same manipulation tool to get peoples attention and encourage them to think!

      The truth is I've long held the belief that the way to actually influence social change in a significant manner is to utilize the tools that are being used to influence people now...only change the message.

      (((Hugs)))

      Thanks for your input.

      Shannon

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      I want to say:"It is totally difficult to find the basic rules which change the behavior of a society".

      For me it was interesting to read that there are teachings on how to deal with the media of all kinds since we (in Iran and maybe all the Middle-East) really lack these educations. What I'm going to say is about my country which really hurts me and I haven't found an answer to it.
      We had a complete REVOLUTION about 30 years ago, changing so many aspects of our country. But the people were really the same at that time and I'm still wondering "Why a revolution?" I mean the word "changing" is just a word and when the minds are still the same, we would have a "contradiction".
      Which contradiction? Many ones! For instance, now the media are strictly controlled to easily tell people "you don't really want to change, here we are to decide on what to change". None the less the "people" of society revolutionized. After that revolution the "layered" system "controlled" "us" (Do you see that? It is amazing that I've accepted the layered system controls "us"). As a result people now just like to be aware of news and the very same thing that I hear from our past generation is this: "They (the government) should find a solution". I can't even bear watching the news from our national channels. They just want to give us the idea of "The whole world is changing in the wrong direction and "we" are right".
      But the good thing is that my generation learned to change in a way that these limitations can't attack them. I mean from all aspects, many of us, are looking for a different way.

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      Shannon, the Gemini in you is peering out...
      I also wanted to add that there are valid points to consider with regard to this overall issue in the thread initiated by Narnia within this forum, entitled The Secret Powers of Time. It's worth reviewing and bringing into this discussion.
      I'll refrain from any further comments due to my anarchist nature. lol.
      Last edited by Narnia; July 11th, 2010 at 11:09 PM. Reason: inserting link


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      I ask this due to the forum being what it is...
      How logical is society when it's very existance is in direct contradiction to Life itself????
      And what is more important, 'reality' or this illusion called 'society'?


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      What is society if its not a reflection of all of us?

      Let's really look at it for a moment...

      The reality is that most of the members of society, which include all of us, like it or not, react to the stimulous of society only to the point to which we are justified in what ever belief we currently hold. Society is run off of fear and when ever we react or act with in that, we perpetuate it.

      How often do we stand with in our own personal righteousness and condemn and blame not even realizing that the very acts of condemnation and blame come from our fears, the very energy that drives our society. We might even believe we are acting from a positive stand point regarding the circumstances of our lives, over looking that our actions spring from a fear we hold so close and justify so well that we cant see the fear behind it. Its like an addiction, this fear, and we'll go to any lengths to justify it and keep it close, not seeing how it controls our lives to frightening degrees.

      I see the wars in our world and realize that my own inner anger, righteous though it may seem, is the reflection.

      I feel keenly how others seek to judge me or members of my family and the pain that comes from their lack of understanding and realize how my own lack of understanding leads me to judge as well.

      I feel great anger at the atrocities perpetrated in our society and realize that it stems from my own impotence in being able to change things.

      We DO have the ability and the power to change things... but the journey to this place is where it always has been... within.
      äîìëåú ùì àìåäéí òí áê

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      I have to ask at what point does that which is within extend to that which is all around us???
      You know me well enough to know I have seen this 'world'. You know me well enough to know that I am and have been 'judgemental'. And you know as do I that we've beat this dead horse beyond the grave. And still it has gone no where.
      I am who I AM. I will not change for you or anyone else.
      I will act in the ways I feel are needed to bring about change as is best to my abilities. And to be completely honest, I don't care what Anyone thinks of me or my conduct.
      Live a year in my lifetime and then I may listen to your preaching of what is right and wrong.
      It all sounds too much like excuses for doing nothing at all.
      And should Shannon become angered at me for expressing this that is my truth, than perhaps she should speak for herself.
      You can coast through your lifetime all you want. But don't expect others to do the same.
      My Life Has Purpose.
      Last edited by Lion Spirit Walker; July 20th, 2010 at 02:26 AM. Reason: additional thoughts


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      I have enjoyed reading everyone's comments and found much insight. The question that arises for me is: do we make society or does society make us?

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      Another question, I got from Nisargadatta: are we born into the world, or is the world born in us?

      Maybe if I had a little more energy I could try to answer those...or maybe the questions are more important than the answers. Answers are just ideas after all.

      Some random thoughts on the subject...

      In the past, a lot of this thing we call "society" has been wholly unconscious, very destructive and, frankly quite insane. It still is to a large degree. But I do think a greater number of people are waking up and becoming aware of what's going on, and are not simply content to repeat the old patterns of the past. It seems to me that most generations tend to simply replicate the actions, ideas or beliefs of the previous generation plus or minus ten percent. But this could be changing. There is greater awareness - injustices and insanities in the spheres of politics, business and social life are coming to light more and more and being challenged...perhaps because we're becoming more aware of the collective human insanity. Those that are becoming more aware of and are questioning the functioning of society are among the vanguard. Greater consciousness equals greater coherence, greater harmony and more of a holistic regard for the whole.

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      Great question Rory... my belief is that it is both.
      äîìëåú ùì àìåäéí òí áê

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      (((Rory)))...yup good points...on the first post I'd say that we created society in the first place, but from their it becomes a combination of both, we are creations of society as well as the creators of society.

      In the past, a lot of this thing we call "society" has been wholly unconscious, very destructive and, frankly quite insane. It still is to a large degree. But I do think a greater number of people are waking up and becoming aware of what's going on, and are not simply content to repeat the old patterns of the past. It seems to me that most generations tend to simply replicate the actions, ideas or beliefs of the previous generation plus or minus ten percent. But this could be changing. There is greater awareness - injustices and insanities in the spheres of politics, business and social life are coming to light more and more and being challenged...perhaps because we're becoming more aware of the collective human insanity. Those that are becoming more aware of and are questioning the functioning of society are among the vanguard. Greater consciousness equals greater coherence, greater harmony and more of a holistic regard for the whole.
      I love this insight, and I think good points to ponder. May I add that one of the things that allow's for enlightenment is stepping out of the survival mentality that is still very much a part of our world.

      When we are spending our time simply on surviving we don't have so much time to consider a greater understanding. Which is one of the reasons I believe that we need to work extra hard to change our worlds view on poverty among other things.

      (((Mcheraghimin)))

      May I ask first, are you living in Iran? I found your post very enlightening in many ways, actually more of a confirmation of the information we get from time to time as to the state of affairs on a social level from your part of the world.

      Yes we do have some education on advertising and promotion and some of the finer points of propaganda, however it is amazing how this information simply goes over the heads of most people and they still are influenced greatly by the sensationalism of such things.

      The truth is that in many ways our society has been changed and influenced by such things, and what we often think we need is really due to advertising and conditioning over years.

      Thank you for taking the time to post.

      (((Michael)))

      How logical is society when it's very existance is in direct contradiction to Life itself????
      And what is more important, 'reality' or this illusion called 'society'?
      My initial question to you about your post is simply could you give an example of what you mean.

      On the post from last night I honestly don't know exactly how to respond...other then to tell you that you have truly assumed incorrectly.

      Peace/Love/Joy

      Shannon

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